DCC friendly points

The 5 new peco electrofrog points have arrived and the process of making them 'DCC friendly' has begun.  I will post photos later, but all have had the joiner pivots swapped for insulated ones, the springs removed and the points reassembled.  One piece of webbing has been removed and I hope to hop the stock rails and blades together using phosphor bronze strip tonight. 

Then reassembly of the yard will commence.

The hoffs are here

They are in good nick and have obviously been installed on a layout somewhere.  I have tested them all and they all work, although one is a little squeaky and slower than the others, I suspect a function of differences in between can motors.  Some grease should stop the squeak. 

There are therefore no obvious problems except that the wires that actually throw the points are missing.  I thus need to source some piano wire.  The wire that came with my other hoff was 0.6mm but I know that the 7mm layout Dinas uses thicker wire than that, so something like 1mm would probably be sensible.  The search starts tonight.

More thoughts on layout lighting

Another trip to IKEA at the weekend and I found this.  It’s LAGRA and it’s a desk lamp.  However if you don’t attach the base it looks like the image above.
The bottom has a small grub screw to attach it to its base, but it struck me that if you could find some tubing slightly larger in diameter and you drill a hole through it, the grub screw could be used to secure this lamp to a support.  The arm would then bring it over the layout and the lamp itself also has the ability to be repositioned.  I reckon I'd need two per board.
and the price. well that’s the beauty(bulb extra) but £2.99!
Colin

Starting again

It has not been possible to convert the in situ points to ‘DCC friendly’ and attempts to do so resulted in damage to either the tiebar or the frogs.  Thus I have removed the points, which you may find alarming. 

However this does actually give me an opportunity to tidy up some non-standard wiring from the days when Rhyd Ddu was to be DC powered (note the blue wire above which was provided to isolate the siding – unneccessary in DCC so it can be removed), and also to put right some rather large track gaps.
I have also shortened the long siding (headshunt) to be closer to reality.  However in reality the railway has yet to extend this headshunt as I expected they would.

Points are on their way, the hoffs are on their way.  Now its time to buy an accessory decoder…
My plan is to get all this in and tested asap and I want to prove everything electrically and in terms of running before I paint and ballast the new track.

A great site I just found on t'internet

http://www.modelrailroading.nl/ProjectNGG16/IndexNGG16.html

Documenting in many pages with lots of images the building of the backwoods NGG16.  This will need some time to digest so I'll be spending most of tonight reading it. 

Colin

The Hoffs are coming!

4 Hoffmanns have just been purchased on ebay for the bargain price of £25.  That is about half the normal price.  cool.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350310066099&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT

Rewiring commences

But first some scenics…

Well actually the ground frame, which seems awfully relevant given the point motor change that’s about to happen…  The handrails were added and painted gunmetal – that’s some cool paint by the way!

 

and here is the underneath – all point motors and the accy decoder gone – all wires labelled ready for the arrival of the hoffs!

More on Hoffmanns

http://finneyandsmith.co.uk/finneyandsmith/hoffman.htm
I think these are going to be the answer, but with a new accessory decoder required too.  Probably an LS150 (6 output). 

I tried the hoffmann with the gaugemaster DCC30 last night but it didn’t work.  I also prefer the LS150 as it is covered and has those 6 outputs, rather than just the 4 of the DCC30.  It looks altogether better built too.  Images below.  A friend has already used this to power hoffmanns with no alterations or extra components required – easy, as it should be.

I should also mention that despite setting the DCC30 output to its maximum (127) it still didn't have enough ummph to throw 2 solenoids at once.  The addition of a CDU might help this, but given the above it's time to move on past this peco/DCC30 combination.

and then…

I went into the garage to find some insulated joiners and came across a hoffmann slow action motor that dad had given me a few years ago.  These have also been recommended to me by friends and work well with DCC accessory decoders as they require 16v AC just like solenoids.  They come with integrated polarity switching and you can buy extra switches for signal switching etc.

A few issues remain to be answered on this, but maybe this is the answer…?

The fulgurex thing is not so much the current draw say gaugemaster, but that it requires DC input and although with tortoises this can be overcome, no-one has managed to make a fulgurex work like this.  They are also considerably larger than these hoffmanns. 

The first point being butchered!  Don’t worry nothing is broken – insulated joiners will be added as a new pivot and the blades glued back on to the tiebar. A new plastic piece will be added to stop the point moving to the right and disconnecting the insulated joiners.

More on the point motor strategy

I have received my fulgurex point motor and had a good look at it. 

The current draw from one of these is about 200mA, way less than the DCC30 accessory decoder rating of 3A (I have asked gaugemaster again about this given their belief that it won’t work). 

When you start looking into this you soon realise why my current (no pun intended) setup is so lame at throwing points.  The peco motors can draw 4A, and in one case I am trying to power 2 at once = 8A on a 3A rated system.  ah.

Thus it does seem sensible to move to

1) Latching, if I am to butcher the points and make them DCC friendly, and in the process killing the springs

2) Less of a current draw to get good reliable throw

3) Slow motion for realism.

Thus I am still proposing to switch to fulgurex motors. 

Further complications

Gaugemaster now tell me that the DCC30 accessory decoder that I have cannot power fulgurex motors as they require too much current.  A DCC31 may be about to be launched that will do that job.  ah.

Points strategy

My strategy will now be as follows:

1) Attempt to remove the springs from the existing peco points and replace the rail joiner hinge with an insulated one as per an idea by Tony S on rmweb.  I will then link together the stock rail and point blades to sort out this issue with shorting.  A small amount of reballasting and repainting of rails will be necessary.

2) In time replace the peco solenoid motors with fulgurex slow motion types and reprogram my DCC30 accessory decoder (gaugemaster) for latching point motors).  This also needs some resistors adding.  Furthermore I have emailed gaugemaster to understand whether I can use their accessory decoder I have to operate two fulgurex’s together on one output – the yard and yard headshunt points which always act together.  I will be ordering a fulgurex today to understand how it works.

Thanks for all the comments people, very helpful.  One of the beauties of this blog is access to other people’s thoughts and ideas – cheers.

Other point motor types

With thanks to Michael Campbell, my attention has been drawn to three more types of point motors:

1) Fulgurex see http://www.dccsupplies.com/shop/product_info.php?products_id=284 and for instructions see http://www.finescale.org.uk/finescale/fulgurex.htm

These are a much better cost that tortoise and also much lower profile (30mm).  They can have 2 or more aux switches and the only issues are apparently noise (not a huge issue for me) and the fact that they are hard to alter later (but I hope to get them installed correctly first time and would probably glue them in with epoxy for strength and a bit of alteration time whilst drying.

2) Conrad see http://www.conrad-uk.com/ and search for point mechanism -
people say these are cheap versions of the below.  They only have the single switch and people say avoid them on reliability grounds.

3) Hoffmann see http://finneyandsmith.co.uk/finneyandsmith/hoffman.htm

as 2, they only have one switch and are about as expensive as tortoises.  Fulgurex still my favourite.

So, to change or not...

Reliability

I have written before about my concerns regarding loco reliability and recent sales of locos fit with that.  However I have also been thinking very carefully about points too.

There are 3 issues:

1) DCC 'friendly' issues regarding shorts between point blade and stock rail.

There are more detailed sites about this such as wiring for dcc (http://www.wiringfordcc.com/) but the principles are well explained here: http://www.newrailwaymodellers.co.uk/electrics-dcc-wiring-a-layout.htm

Basically, an out of gauge wheelset may bridge the gap between a stock rail at -ve and a point blade at +ve.  This causes a short, which in DC operation would just result the loco momentarily stalling before recovering.  However in DCC this kind of short would reset the command station as decoders are very sensitive to shorts - the command station shuts down to protect the decoders.

I have in the past dismissed this as a minor issue as it shouldn't happen too much and I will make sure the back to backs on locos/stock are correct.  Having thought about it though the plastic centred wheels with metal treads that are used almost uniformally in my stock do sometimes come apart and I can see that this shorting thing could be more of a problem that once thought.

So, it would be far better to join the stock rail to the point blade so it is the same polarity and make a cut just before the frog.  The frog remains power routed and the problem is solved.  Insulfrog points just need the wires carrying current over the dead frog to be cut and the blades to be linked to the stock rails.  The insulfrog creates the gap and no cutting of rails is required.

In 009 peco electrofrog points are difficult due to the way that they are made.  Half way along the point blade there is a rail joiner which acts as a pivot.  This is within just a few chairs of the frog.  So if you try and put a break in the blade as suggested the piece of rail left behind wobbles terribly and comes away at the pivot.  In OO this is not such a problem as the point is considerably longer. 

People have suggested filling the gap created with araldite or some non conducting filler, but this is not really a proper solution either for long term reliability.

The real solution is to find points that don't have this pivot in them.  Most hand built points are not made that way and so are some others such as those made by tillig.

I am therefore carefully considering whether to dig up my peco points and either get some specially made for me (with electrofrogs) or move to insulfrog tillig points.

2) Solenoid versus latching point motors

The solenoid motors I have installed are not latching, so they don't hold the blade against the stock rail as if it were locked there. 

They are also very strong in their action (although I need to do some more programming on mine as they aren't strong enough at the moment), which puts stress on the points unneccessarily.  Might tortoise slow action (and latching) motors be a better bet?  The problem is that these require quite some depth of baseboard.  I have just under 70mm of depth, a tortoise needs 85mm - a problem!

I would also need a different type of accessory decoder too - the wabbit. http://www.dccsupplies.com/shop/product_info.php?products_id=1307

so this is getting expensive!

Seep latching motors could be a possibility too, but they only have one aux switch, causing problems for my point indicator LED wiring. 

I think I'll stay with peco for now on cost grounds, but I may need one of these for extra ummph where I have set things up to throw two solenoids at once http://www.bromsgrovemodels.co.uk/masterswitchfaq.htm

3) Check rail clearances

I have never been happy with this element of peco points, which in many cases require filing to accept even the finest flanges.  Tillig points are much better in this regard.

If you want to see what a tillig point looks like, check: http://www.internationalmodels.net/acatalog/Main_Catalogue_Index_Narrow_Gauge_23.html

The 'massive' problem being that they are insulfrog.

So, do we prefer DCC friendly but insulfrog tillig, over DCC unfriendly but electrofrog peco? Or should I get some hand built points that are electrofrog and DCC friendly?

NGG16

I’ve had a good look at the NGG16 now and I think the problem with the chassis is that the quartering is out.  I need to check with someone who has completed one of these engines though.  Thus I will take it with me next time I see Dad.
In other news, the replacement wheel for Tal has arrived and so work can recommence there.
Colin

Ngg16 arrived

Well my new NGG16 arrived today and generally I’m very happy.  It has been well put together and I’m lucky that it has got to a stage where detailing to suit my chosen prototype is still possible.  There’s a bit of errant solder to clean up, but this is nitpicking really.  The main issues I can see are one wheel that has come away from its tread and also the complete chassis runs great in forwards but sometimes gets stuck in reverse.  This shouldn’t be too taxing to sort out though.

Get in there

I have some locos for sale:

Moel Tryfan - http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110483342149&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT

Baldwin 590 - http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110483393212&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT

Gowrie - http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110483395646&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT

and 4415 the Kerr Stuart diesel - http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110483397591&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT

get in there quick if you want one.

Colin

Leamington Show images

A great show – a large hall with plenty of space to move about in, lots of families there, good traders (modelex and squires got most of my dollars), good layouts, superb restaurant but not much narrow gauge!

Flockburgh 3mm

 

Playmobil layout

A very clever bit of scenic modelling, highlighting a frosty winter morning – Blackston Junction in P4

 

A work in progress of Toddington (GWSR)

 

And our favourite – Oulton TMD – digital sound from classes 20,31,33,37,43,45,47,50,56,60,108 and 159 plus lots of LED lighting in 00. Video at the bottom.

 

  

Iron Mould Lane – nice, very nice

Colin

Another NGG16

Purchased on ebay last night is another NGG16 for Rhyd Ddu.  This will be the 4th NGG16, and the 5th Garratt when you include K1.  The loco is partly built and appears to have been constructed to an excellent standard.  I will likely use the two chassis for No.87 and this body, plus the unbuilt chassis from my 87 kit will become No. 109 - Pete Waterman's NGG16 under overhaul at Crewe.  The fact that very little body detail is done is useful as I can then recreate the pipe runs etc when 109 appears out of the works.

This means I will be able to pass two trains of double headed NGG16s in the station - cool!

This will also mean that plans to sell Moel Tryfan, 4415, the Baldwin 590 and Gowrie will have to be accelerated.  Gowrie is still a kit and I will be constructing it tonight ready for sale.

In other news, I attended the Leamington/Warwick show on Saturday - good show, report to come on this blog.  I have also ordered a replacement wheel for Taliesin from alan gibson. 

Colin

Christmas progress

May I wish all readers of this blog a happy new year.  Maybe 2010 will see Rhyd Ddu exhibited, who knows?

Christmas progress has been slow (as you would expect), news being:

- The prep for sale of the Baldwin 590 and Moel Tryfan.  This included the first use of Dad's new graphic air filtration unit (shown above).  During this the hairdryer we were using managed to heat the model so that the low melt solder holding the boiler unit and cab square part melted causing the body to fall out of square!

- The arrival of my CMX track cleaner and a trip to boots to get some nail varnish remover for really powerful track cleaning! [not every day, but where for example paint or hairspray overspray has got on the rail head]

- Father Christmas bringing an 08 shunter chassis for Harlech Castle with outside frames, books and also the prodigy PC interface cable.

- Attempts to retain the crankpin on Taliesin's troublesome wheel failing despite the use of powerbond and loctite 601.  It seems these nylon wheel centres are not easy to glue and the crankpin hole has clearly become too large, so a new wheel must be the answer!

- The news that I must travel abroad (to Malta) for a while on work, so modelling is likely to cease for this period and thus blog updates will likely stop for a couple of weeks (sorry).  Hopefully it will be hotter over there than it is here!  Well looking at the forecast it looks like 18-20 degrees C in the day and 15 at night.  Nice!
Colin